Journalist and filmmaker Susan Stern’s new documentary Bad Attitude: The Art of Spain Rodriguez premieres at this year’s Slamdance Film Festival. Serving as both a history of underground comics and a biopic of Spain Rodriguez, who is also Stern’s late husband, the film uses a wealth of Rodriguez’s art and archival footage to reckon with the political and artistic legacy of the trailblazing cartoonist. Speaking on the phone a few days before the festival premiere, Stern and I discussed her approach to incorporating comic book art into film, the importance of interrogating Rodriguez’s art from a feminist perspective, and how he paved the way for today’s artists to speak out against injustice through the medium of comics.
Film Cred: There’s something unique about the film. It feels a lot like Spain’s artwork. It’s really dynamic and irreverent and energetic, but there’s still a lot of humanity to it as well. Can you talk about how you approached filming and editing Bad Attitude?
Susan Stern: That’s a really good question. It was difficult to figure out how to put the pieces of it together. In terms of talking about Spain’s artwork — the real challenge with comics, of course, [is that it is] a vertical medium and film is a very horizontal medium. And so that was very difficult to work with, to even begin to be able to tell the story, to figure out how to work with the art enough to…figure out how to tell the story. And ultimately Nol Honig, the motion graphics designer out of New York, conquered that problem. And that was really amazing. And we had to figure out — I think when you’re telling a story, often you’re working both with chronology and with theme. So we struggled a lot with how to tell Spain’s story. We knew that it had themes that had to do with masculinity that were very current for today, that had to do with feminism and the depiction of women that are very current, that had to do with police brutality that are very current. And so the real challenge was weaving in all those themes with his life story and then finding the artwork to tell the story
FC: Interesting. Yeah, that was another thing that I really enjoyed…the comics coming to life, the motion graphics that you mentioned. So that really played into it in terms of bringing even more life to the artwork and kind of making it leap off the screen, so to speak. So that was a really cool element as well.
SS: Well, that’s cool. I’m glad you like that. We also worked really hard on that because there can be too much animation we’re dealing with here. I wanted to make a film that was for Spain’s fans and for comics fans. And some comics fans are very, you know, hands off. They’re like, “No, this is still; we don’t want pieces of it moving around. Don’t do that.” And then the general public is like, “Oh, yeah, wow. Animate it. Move it.” So we really tried to — I have to say, Nol came up with an idea which was that when we’re telling the story, when we’re using the comics to tell a story, we can really move on them because we have to. That’s the storytelling. But other times when we want to see the comics as art, then let them just hang there like a piece of art on a museum wall. So that was the idea there.
FC: Absolutely. I can see that. And I understand, because I’ve been a comics fan for a really long time, and I’ve definitely encountered that with people being very rigid in how they want things to go. But I think it struck a really, really nice balance. So I appreciate you talking about that aspect because I was really interested in it.
SS: Oh, that’s cool. That’s cool that you’ve been a comics fan for a long time.
FC: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I was really excited when I got the opportunity to watch the film and to speak with you, so I do appreciate it.
SS: Oh, good. Good.
FC: I did want to ask: at one point, speaking of feminism, you say in the film that you’re not sure whether this project is about defending Spain’s reputation or defending yourself a bit when it comes to some of his work and what people perceived as anti-feminist messages. Is that a question that you ever really answered for yourself?
SS: That’s a good question, too. I did answer it for myself. A big reason that I made the film is, I really wanted to grapple with his work, and I think — Spain was incredibly prolific. I think he created, I don’t know, tens of thousands of images. With a team of people, I believe I looked at every one of them. We did a massive archival project before, as part of, making the film. So we created a custom-made database and we assembled maybe 43 archival boxes [and] inventoried every piece of artwork, including some boxes that say things like “Art in Weird Places.” That has a box. Or “Art on Envelopes.” Because Spain never met a piece of paper he didn’t like, you know; he drew on all of them, so I really grappled with it. And I also read every issue of Zap Comix, and I made an elaborate color-coded dissection of sex and violence in Zap Comix, which I won’t go into all of because that partially also led me to the idea that this is a film about Spain. And it’s really not my role in this film to take on the seven artists in Zap Comix. But with Spain, I really did look at everything and really analyzed the work and came to the conclusion that, yes, he really depicted women very erotically, nakedly, scantily clad. But I did not feel that he victimized women in his artwork. Women are often warriors and very often subjects. So the whole issue of “Are these women objectified, made into objects?” I felt that they weren’t. But on the other hand, what I wanted to do in the film is not just present my own point of view. So that’s why I had Andi Zeisler, the co-founder of Bitch Media, Bitch Magazine; Susie Bright, who is a feminist sex writer; Aline Kominsky-Crumb, one of the founding artists, women underground cartoonists; Trina Robbins, a founding underground cartoonist; Spain’s sister; Spain’s daughter; and many other female and feminist voices on their point of view. I don’t think that’s an issue that can be resolved, about how he depicted women in his art. On the other hand, something that…is somewhat addressed in the film by the voices of myself and Spain and my daughter Nora is that Spain was a very good man and good husband. He was a friend to women underground cartoonists. He was a mentor and teacher to women. He never was accused to my knowledge of sexual harassment.
FC: Yeah, that absolutely comes through. One of the things I appreciate so much about the film is that it doesn’t shy away from difficult topics, that it takes a really nuanced approach to them. it still presents this good person, but it doesn’t shy away from saying, “What can we talk about in this work? And how can we approach it? And let’s look at all these different viewpoints.” So I wanted to ask: what conversations do you want to see come out of this film?
SS: I’d like the conversation about the depiction of women to come out of this film. I would like all of us — I mean, it’s particularly important for me among feminists, among women, to talk about how we feel about this depiction, how we feel about these various issues within feminism or women’s power, the depiction of women, the treatment of women, those issues. I would like those to be discussed. Also, of course, Spain defined himself as a Marxist. He was very much always a critic of what we now call income inequality, which has only gotten worse since he was a critic of it in the 1960s. So I’d like those discussions to come out of it as well. One of the things that I have really noticed putting the film out now is that the film really has great archival footage and depictions in Spain’s comics of the left-wing violence of the 1960s protest movement against the Vietnam War and also against racism. And I was afraid that people would see those scenes and mistake them for the right-wing violence that we’re seeing now, and I wanted to say, “Oh, no, people, you know, this is left-wing.” But it really has made me question violence, any kind of political violence. You know, if what I’m looking at shows me that it looks the same, maybe there’s a message that I’m supposed to realize from this.
FC: Tying into the issue of income inequality, the film touches briefly on — I think the comics industry (all industries, really, but the comics industry especially) — if you’re a fan, you’re well aware of the financial difficulty that most artists experience, especially later on in their careers. Can you talk a little bit about that and how that aspect of that industry fits in with the larger theme of the film of outsiders and working class people just struggling to survive in our society?
SS: That’s such a good question, too, about the comics industry. I mean…the film tells somewhat the history of comics in the United States. Of course, comics are an American medium. You know, Spain was born in 1940. I think Superman and Batman and the other major superheroes were born around 1938, 1939. So he came of age with World War II comics, EC Comics, and then the underground comics. And of course, people, comics fans really, really know about how some of these early creators — the team that created Superman, most notably — you know, made nearly nothing off of this creation. Whereas major corporations have made a lot. One of the innovations of underground comics was for the artists to control their work, to own their copyrights and to profit off of their own work and self-publish their own work. And that was a breakthrough with the underground, which I don’t think has been maintained today. And it’s very sad. It has to do with artists and writers and journalists. I spent most of my career as a journalist, not making a lot of money, not making the money that they’re worth. And that is one thing when you’re young and it gets much scarier when you get old.
FC: Yeah, there’s a lot going on in the film, but part of it is this loving tribute to a comics legend. But, you know, we see some scenes later on [like] the retrospective of his work. There are people who are discovering his work for the first time. Is there something that you want new fans to take away from the film? Do you like the idea of people coming to the film and perhaps not knowing who he is and then coming away with a new appreciation for his work?
SS: Yes, I love the idea of that. I’ve shown the film to fans and they love the film, and comics fans generally love the film. And I’d like comics fans to appreciate his work and the work and role of the underground. Because I know these days there’s a lot of criticism of underground comics because of how far they went, having to do with sex and violence, which was a reaction against the Comics Code, which suppressed comics. So I’d like people to know of Spain and other pioneers that have helped us have the freedoms we have today. And then for people who aren’t into comics, I just want them to appreciate how wonderful comics are and how really central to popular culture comics are.
FC: Absolutely. I’m very hopeful about that as well, because, like I said, I’m a huge comics fan. And I think even for a relatively short film, it does such a good job of contextualizing everything and giving this overview of not just his life but of comics history. while still being…a really human story and being really dynamic. I just really like the way it all tied together. So I just wanted to tell you, I appreciate that.
SS: I’m so glad. That makes me happy, Jessica.
FC: The film ends on a really hopeful note with Spain saying, “I have faith in the revolution.” Are there specific artists you see as being important current voices in activist art? Or are there trends that you want to talk about or shed a light on?
SS: There’s so many. There’s so many young cartoonists. One relatively young cartoonist in the film is Ed Piskor who’s interviewed, who is doing some amazing work with the X-Men. But he also did Hip Hop Family [Tree], a huge collection of amazing stories. The other person is…G. Willow Wilson. She’s a woman who is a Muslim and is just bringing the whole world of Muslim women and…when I last looked, she was imagining a Muslim woman superhero, a girl. So she’s wonderful. I think — I mean, obviously all the interest that has come from the — you know, I love Wonder Woman. I haven’t seen the second Wonder Woman film, but the first film and of course Black Panther, I enjoy them so much. And, yeah, I mean, as Spain says in the end of the film, “I believe in the revolution.” But he also says, “You can scream until you’re blue in the face or you can find a tool to make your voice heard.” And comics could be that tool.
FC: Absolutely. A question I often like to ask people is: is there something that you want people to take away from the film or you want to talk about that you haven’t been asked about? Is there something you want to talk about that you haven’t had the opportunity to say?
SS: Well, your last question was one. And so I’m feeling like, “Wow, I really have to center my mind on some of the young artists that I’ve seen and remember them.” I suppose one of the things…in the film is, I love the animation of our daughter Nora Rodriguez…I love her animation, and I’d love people to see that and just to see a family of artists, which we were. Because I think that — I don’t know if I’m right about this, but it often has seemed to me that culture likes their artists really dysfunctional. They feel like, “Give me a film or a book about, you know, an artist who is a sexual harasser or an artist who is an alcoholic…or an artist who is mentally ill.” And those kinds of works are really popular. And it’s not that Spain wasn’t a conflictive person who didn’t make mistakes in his life. But that’s not this story. This story is: artists can be very functional and political and, you know, active citizens. So I’d like people to see that.
