As anyone who has been to a really good (or really bad) dance party can attest, song choices can quickly make or break a vibe. This same fact translates to the world of film and television as well. While seemingly simple, curating songs to fit a particular project’s style, mood, character, period, and budget is actually a highly complex and important task. And as one of the premier music supervisors working today, it’s one that Maggie Phillips does extremely well.
Even if her name isn’t immediately setting off alarms of mental recognition right about now, odds are good you’ve experienced Phillips’ skill firsthand. In 2022 alone, Phillips has worked her musical magic on projects like The Dropout, Shining Girls, Gaslit, Our Flag Means Death, Walker, Angelyne, The Adam Project, Snowfall, and For All Mankind. The best part of this impressive resume is that the year isn’t even over yet. To learn a bit more about Phillips and the fascinating career of music supervision, I sat down (virtually) with her for a chat. Along the way, we discuss her path into the field, some of her recent projects, deep cuts, needle drops, her all-female music supervision business, and so much more.
Film Cred: How did you initially get into the field of music supervision?
Maggie Phillips: Yeah! My story is very roundabout and it’s different these days. I feel like there are classes now and people know about the career — but I had no clue. I was doing music supervision before I even knew that a music supervisor existed, you know? I was born and raised in Austin, Texas and my background is in visual art. I’ve always been a huge fan of music and I was that friend giving out mix CDs and sort of telling everyone about the new band they need to listen to. I had a lot of friends who were musicians, so it was always a passion of mine, but I’m not musical. I’m not a musician.
After college, I sort of had a quickie marriage in Austin and then finally got to go to New York in my mid-twenties to pursue art. When I was there, I got to be very good friends with Mark and Jay Duplass who I knew tangentially from the University of Texas at Austin. All three of us went to the same college. So when we were in New York together, we just got to be really quick, fast, like, family friends. And they’re still like family to me.
They then started making movies while we were all living in Williamsburg together. I thought they were making, like, home videos because they were doing it so cheap. I was like, “This is cute that they’re doing this!” But then they got a movie into Sundance and they needed help with the music. They asked me for help and that’s what started it all!
I continued to help them as I was still painting and then they had friends that I started helping. Just to help, as a hobby. And then I had another friend who was a producer take me aside and she was like, “You know this is a career, right?” And I was like, “No! What!?” I had no clue, really. And then Mark and Jay got bigger and they were very loyal and kept coming back to me. Even though I had no clue what I was doing. I just had to teach myself. But that was about 15 years ago and, here we are now!
FC: Once you decided to jump into the field with both feet, was there anything about the job that surprised you? Or, anything that was particularly tricky to figure out?
MP: Everything surprised me about it. I had no clue what I was getting into. When Mark and Jay did their first studio movie called Cyrus with Jonah Hill, Marisa Tomei, and John C. Reilly, that was my first studio movie. It was trial by fire. They must have fought really hard to get me the gig because I clearly had no experience and didn’t know what I was doing.
But, I learned about parts of myself that I didn’t know existed. For example, I learned that I was good at numbers! Because, I was always this artist type, you know? I always knew I was a good people person though. I knew I was empathetic. That really comes into play when you’re a music supervisor. And also strong work ethic and all that. But back then, I was just thrown out to the wolves.
There were a few people who took pity on me. Wende Crowley (Senior VP of Creative Marketing for Film & TV) at Sony sort of helped me out during that process. And then another music supervisor, Gabe Hilfer (Don’t Look Up) became a point of help. But there wasn’t a lot out there and there weren’t a lot of resources. The field was still very new.
FC: Well, you clearly made it work for you.
MP: I made it work! [Laughs] I will say, I did it for about 8 to 10 years and then quit because I was like, “I can’t do it. I’m getting paid hardly anything.” I was getting pigeonholed as the indie film music supervisor. “If you have a micro-budget, go to Maggie. She can make it work!” And there’s only so many favors you can pull. [Laughs] You can’t keep asking for favors.
I had so many studios turn me down when I tried to go up for bigger, better-paying jobs. They would say, “You’ve only done indies. You haven’t proven yourself.” And I was like, “Well, yeah. But I’ve done 30 indies.” And by the way, indies are hard. It was ultimately Fargo [the TV series] that gave me my chance, made me break, and be able to have studios trust me.
FC: When you first sign onto a project, where do you start? Are there key bits of info you need from the showrunners or directors to get going and do what you do?
MP: We need the scripts immediately. That’s how I start breaking down the characters, creating playlists, and developing themes and stuff. Also, talking to the showrunner or director and getting a sense of their musical tastes. When I come on the projects, it’s early. It’s typically in the script stage. But also, most directors have been with this project for a year already before me coming on. So typically, they’ll have some playlists and they have some direction. I’m always there to service someone else’s creative vision. We start with the scripts, a little bit of direction, and then I take it from there.
FC: How long are you typically involved with a project?
MP: We’re one of the only department heads that work from the very beginning to the very end. So, for a TV show, it’s at least a year. A movie, at least a year. It’s a lot of work. But the way you make it work as a music supervisor is, you’ll see that I’m on a lot of projects, but they’re at different stages. Normally with TV, there’s an intense four to five months when you’re deep in production and deep in post-production. So yeah, we’re on it for a while.
FC: So, you recently worked on Hulu’s Elizabeth Holmes-inspired series, The Dropout as well as Apple TV+’s Shining Girls. While The Dropout has back-to-back, time-stamped bangers, Shining Girls takes a much different musical approach and utilizes a lot more deep cuts. When it comes to bold, deliberate music choices like this, is that something you as music supervisor decide?
MP: No. I mean…I help to influence, but it’s not my decision. With Shining Girls, I started with more obvious tracks or more well-known tracks because it’s [a] period [piece]. And some of the scripted stuff was a little more obvious. But then I was working with the showrunner [Silka Luisa] who pushed me to go more obscure. And like, if I were creating my own show, it would all be obscure. It would all be stuff that hasn’t been used before, it would be very subtle and it wouldn’t be bangers, you know? I feel like that’s been done so many times and we’re oversaturated.
So I was really pleased when the showrunner started pushing back on me and saying, “Let’s dig deeper.” And then once I started delivering, she loved it and we kept that through-line. In fact, I don’t think we really put in anything obvious until like, the sixth or seventh episode. And we did that on purpose. By then we’ve already established this world. There was one point where we used The Pharcyde’s “Passin’ Me By” because we wanted to have something that was very much of the period.
FC: I’d love to pull on that thread a little bit more as, with both of these shows, the music does feel very attached to characters. Even with all the giant needle drops in The Dropout, they’re still very tied to Elizabeth and her relationship with music.
MP: Yeah. So when I start, I do playlists for each character. Like, based on when they’re born, where they’re born. For The Dropout, we as music supervisors, [showrunner and co-writer] Elizabeth Meriwether, and the writers did a lot of research. And, these characters have given interviews. We knew Ian’s character was an opera aficionado. We knew Elizabeth listened to hip hop and rap. We knew that “I’m in a Hurry (and Don’t Know Why)” by Alabama was one of her favorite songs and we used it in the pilot.
And Liz wanted bangers. That was definitely a stylistic choice where she not only wanted bangers, but the music was a way to inject some fun into a really hard story to tell. She also wanted the timestamp. We really wanted to be clear about, “We’re in 2005 here. We’re in 2010 here. Let’s choose songs that mark the time period and mark the year.” And when you’re doing that, you don’t have a ton of stuff to select from. Because by doing that, it means it has to be stuff that got a lot of radio play and stuff that people would recognize. So you’re choosing from, you know, a hundred songs every year.
FC: What about the needle drops that seem to transcend and become a moment all to themselves? I bring this up as the Kate Bush placement in Stranger Things has become a huge talking point and introduced her to a whole new audience. Do you ever feel pressure from studios to produce big musical moments like that? Is this ever something you actively discuss and strive for?
MP: No, I don’t think so. I mean, I would push back if the studio is asking for that. I think what we’re trying to do is tell a story and service the story and the narrative. And if you’re looking for that music video, TikTok moment…I mean, it’s great that it happens. I love Kate Bush. I’ve placed her before. She’s one of my heroes and I’m so ecstatic that she’s getting the recognition that she should be getting now. And then the kids that are starting to listen to her, I think that’s awesome. But I doubt that Nora Felder [Stranger Things music supervisor] set out to make a moment like that. She was just making something for Stranger Things and to service that show.
I mean, I have had…like, I worked on the first season of The Umbrella Academy and we used a few songs in the first few episodes that were kind of big song moments. Then Netflix was like, “We love this. We want more of this.” And I understand that, but then it’s oversaturation. I think when you do so much of it, nothing stands out.
FC: I think it can also feel a bit inauthentic and transparent when that happens.
MP: Yeah, exactly! It feels super forced. And like, we had a few moments in the first few episodes of that Umbrella Academy season that were beautiful, fun moments. But then it just felt forced, and forced, and forced, and it just wasn’t fun anymore. There was nothing organic or special about it. But I do understand.
FC: So, you mentioned that your ideal project would use nothing but deep cuts. In your professional opinion, what makes for the perfect deep cut?
MP: Oh, I don’t know if I could put that in words. [Laughs] I think finding a sound that hasn’t been used a lot, is new to the audience, new to me. I love discovery. I love discovery and introducing new music — whether new, new music, or new, old music — to an audience. That’s a really fun part of the job.
But I also think you never really know what’s going to work in a scene. I think the stuff I gravitate to is more deft hand, a little economical. Like, I love the music supervision in Succession where you almost never hear a song. Or the movie Roma that came out a few years ago. Every song you hear there was diegetic and it was perfect. It was very understated, natural, and not super stylized.
FC: When it comes to placement, do you ever have to fight for space or silence? Are there some scenes that are simply better without music?
MP: I have. It depends on the working relationship and whether or not I have a receptive audience. Some shows I’ve worked on, they’re not as collaborative. And then other shows, they’re very collaborative. Like Normal People, which I did a couple of years ago. I fought a lot to pull out songs. And they listened to me which was great. That was one where we had some people pushing for putting songs in the lovemaking scenes.
Lenny [Abrahamson], the director, had shot these scenes very close up, intimate, and awkward. You feel uncomfortable watching them, but you should feel uncomfortable watching them. It’s a super intimate, close moment between these two characters and it feels like you’re losing your virginity all over again, you know? And if you put a song on top of that, you’re completely taken out of that moment. You don’t hear their breathing, you don’t hear the skin touching, you don’t hear the awkward. So that’s an instance where I definitely fought against putting music. Lenny agreed with me and we had to push back a little bit on the studio, but they ultimately agreed too.
FC: I’d like to ask you about the general landscape of music. You’ve been working in the field for a long time now and the way the general public consumes music has changed so dramatically. How has that affected your job? Or, has it?
MP: It hasn’t affected my job, but I will say, with the internet, and with sources like Spotify, you have access to everything and playlists from everybody. I think it just makes it more challenging to introduce anyone to new music. It’s so out there, readily consumed, and easy to consume. I mean, when I was in high school and college, the way I discovered new music was by reading the liner notes from bands I loved, reading what their references were, or reading interviews and hearing what their references were. Or having friends introduce me to new music. And that was the only way! Your world was small. Now everything is out there to be consumed, which I think is often also extremely overwhelming, you know? Everyone’s an expert and everyone knows everything about music. Because it’s out there to be known! But hey, man. That makes it easier for artists to get exposure and get their stuff out there which I fully applaud and encourage.
FC: How has your job impacted your personal relationship with music?
MP: Oh…[sighs] I mean, that’s a negative aspect of the job. Music used to be one of my greatest loves — and it still is — but I don’t have that pure relationship with it like I did. Every listen is loaded. It’s impossible to not connect the music to something I’m working on or have worked on. Or I think to myself, “How much would this cost? Would this be good for this? Would this be good for that?” I don’t think I’m the only music supervisor who would say that’s sort of just an unfortunate aspect of doing this for your career.
But, you know, I used to be a painter. I did that for 10 years and I used to hate going into the studio and painting. But now that’s the only thing I want to do. So, I think that’s just normal. Every now and then I will catch myself listening to something and forget for like, a minute maybe what I do. I love when I capture myself in those moments and remember why I love music.
FC: A little while back you started your own music supervision shop, Deep Cut Music. Tell us a little bit about what inspired you to do that and what your mission is for the company.
MP: Well, I will say, running a company, being a boss, and managing a team has never been something that I have aspired to. I’m learning on the job every day. And it is one of the things I love doing. I’ve actually realized I love mentoring, I love teaching, and I love being able to impart knowledge and have people learn from all my mistakes over the past 15 years.
We want to work on super creative projects. We want to be challenged every day. We don’t want to do the same thing over and over again. We also want to represent all types of people in the music we place. And, we just want to be good people in this world. I teach my team to be ethical, kind, polite, respectful, work hard and, you know, the Golden Rule. Treat others how you want to be treated. We want to do super creative work and challenge the industry.
The other thing is that a career trajectory for music supervisors is to go in-house at a certain date, like an expiration date. I’m trying hard to fight against that. So I’m really trying to build my company up. That’s kind of my goal that’s come out of the past year or two. I’ve decided I don’t want to go in-house. I want this to sustain and thrive. I’d like going in-house to not be the obvious career choice or career trajectory for music supervisors. One of the things which should help with that goal is that we’re finally unionizing.
FC: You know, hearing how you started out in this field kind of by chance, I personally think it’s very cool how you’ve now started your own all-female music supervision shop and are clearly, thriving professionally.
MP: I have to say, I am very proud of myself. It took a while to get here, but I’m proud of it. And I want to encourage more women to do that, and everyone to do that! I also want to help lay the groundwork for the ability to keep doing it and sustain it. Because anyone who’s done it like me for 10 or 15 years knows how challenging it is with the way that we’re treated by studios. It’s hard to sustain and I’ve sacrificed a lot to get where I am. I would say what I’ve sacrificed is any life outside of work. [Laughs] All I do is work.
Shining Girls is currently streaming on Apple TV+. The Dropout is available via Hulu. You can also learn more about Phillips and Deep Cut Music by checking out her site, here.
